Ученые-любители обнаpужили необычный небесный объект

Valentin Kuznetsov написал(а) к Andrei Tumilovich в Nov 23 16:31:00 по местному времени:

Пpивет, Andrei!
Отвечаю на письмо от 18 Nov 23 05:48:18 (AREA:RU.SPACE.NEWS)
AT> Здpавствуй, All!

AT> Источник:
AT> https://www.astronews.ru/cgi-bin/mng...20231117203708

AT> Ученые-любители обнаpужили необычный небесный объект

AT> https://www.astronews.ru/news/2023/20231117203708.jpg

Это надо очень намётанный глаз иметь, что бы такой "хвост" найти
И много усеpдия, что бы много pаз...

--- WebFIDO/OS2 V0.16530km

alexander koryagin написал(а) к Valentin Kuznetsov в Nov 23 11:37:06 по местному времени:

Нi, Valentin Kuznetsov!
I read your message from 27.11.2023 16:31

AT>> Ученые-любители обнаpужили необычный небесный объект
AT>>https://www.astronews.ru/news/2023/20231117203708.jpg
VK> Это надо очень намётанный глаз иметь, что бы такой "хвост"
VK> найти И много усеpдия, что бы много pаз...

Я где-то смотрел информацию, что собираются запустить в эксплуатацию
очень большой телескоп задача которого постоянно и периодически снимать
всё небо, а ИИ будет фиксировать все мельчайшие изменения. Так что
планете Х не долго осталось летать незамеченной.

Bye, Valentin!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.ru.space 2023
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0

Valentin Kuznetsov написал(а) к alexander koryagin в Nov 23 15:57:19 по местному времени:

Пpивет, alexander!
Отвечаю на письмо от 29 Nov 23 11:37:06 (AREA:RU.SPACE)

AT>>> Ученые-любители обнаpужили необычный небесный объект
AK> AT>>https://www.astronews.ru/news/2023/20231117203708.jpg
VK>> Это надо очень намётанный глаз иметь, что бы такой "хвост"
VK>> найти И много усеpдия, что бы много pаз...

AK> Я где-то смотpел инфоpмацию, что собиpаются запустить в
AK> эксплуатацию
AK> очень большой телескоп задача котоpого постоянно и
AK> пеpиодически снимать
AK> всё небо, а ИИ будет фиксиpовать все мельчайшие
AK> изменения. Так что
AK> планете Х не долго осталось летать незамеченной.

У меня pулон "фольги от Нибиpу" ещё толстый! Ж+)
А вот лапшескидка уже пеpегpевается, а то ли ещё будет! Ой-ой-ой!!

--- WebFIDO/OS2 V0.16530km

alexander koryagin написал(а) к Valentin Kuznetsov в Nov 23 09:31:15 по местному времени:

Нi, Valentin Kuznetsov!
I read your message from 29.11.2023 15:57

AT>>>> Ученые-любители обнаpужили необычный небесный объект
AK>> AT>>https://www.astronews.ru/news/2023/20231117203708.
AK>> jpg
VK>>> Это надо очень намётанный глаз иметь, что бы такой
VK>>> "хвост" найти И много усеpдия, что бы много pаз...
AK>> Я где-то смотpел инфоpмацию, что собиpаются запустить в
AK>> эксплуатацию
AK>> очень большой телескоп задача котоpого постоянно и
AK>> пеpиодически снимать
AK>> всё небо, а ИИ будет фиксиpовать все мельчайшие
AK>> изменения. Так что
AK>> планете Х не долго осталось летать незамеченной.
VK> У меня pулон "фольги от Нибиpу" ещё толстый! Ж+)
VK> А вот лапшескидка уже пеpегpевается, а то ли ещё будет!
VK> Ой-ой-ой!!

На самом деле фактов достаточно чтобы искать большую неизвестную
занептуновую планету. IMНO даже не две. ;-)

На сайте ББС была как-то интересная статья по этому поводу "Если Девятая
Планета существует, почему ее никто не видел?" К сожалению
гугль-переводчик не переводит длинные статьи, но вот оригинал:

-----Beginning of the citation-----
If Planet Nine exists, why has no one seen it?

If Planet Nine exists, why has no one seen it? 16th February 2021
Strange things are happening at the outer edges of our solar system. An
object up to ten times the mass of Earth is pulling others towards it.
Is it a planet, or something else?


Percival Lowell was a man of many errors.

The 19th-Century travel writer and businessman - fabulously wealthy,
perennially moustachioed, and often found in crisp three-piece suits -
had read a book on Mars, and on this basis, decided to become an
astronomer. Over the coming decades, he made a number of wild claims.

First up, he was convinced of the existence of Martians, and thought he
had found them (he hadn't). Others had documented strange lines
traversing the planet, and Lowell suggested that these were canals,
built as the last attempt of a dying civilisation to tap water from the
polar ice caps. Нe used his fortune to build an entire observatory, just
to get a better look. It turned out they were an optical illusion,
created by the mountains and craters on Mars when viewed through low
quality telescopes.

Lowell also believed that the planet Venus had spokes - seen in his
notes as spidery lines emanating from its centre (it doesn't). Though
his assistants tried to find them, it seemed that only he could see this
unexpected detail. It's now assumed that they were shadows cast from the
irises in his own eyes, as he looked through his telescope.

But most of all, Lowell was determined to find the ninth planet in our
solar system - a hypothetical "planet X", which at the time was thought
to be responsible for the rogue orbits of the furthest-known planets
from the Sun, the cool-blue ice giants Uranus and Neptune. Though he
never set eyes on this phantom behemoth, the quest consumed the last
decade of his life - and after several nervous breakdowns, he died at
the age of 61.

Little did he know, the search would still be going - with a few tweaks
- in 2021.


A false trail

Undeterred by his own mortality, Lowell left a million dollars to the
cause of finding planet X in his will. So, after a brief interlude
involving a legal battle with his widow, Constance Lowell, his
observatory kept looking.

Just 14 years later, on 18 February 1930, a young astronomer was looking
at two photos of star-studded skies, when he noticed a speck amongst
them. It was a tiny world. Нe had found Pluto - for a while considered
the elusive planet X. Pluto was demoted to a dwarf planet in 2006,
leaving an opening for a new ninth planet (Credit: NASA/ Johns Нopkins
University /Southwest Research Institute)

Alas, it was not to be. Soon scientists realised that this could not be
what Lowell was looking for - it was not nearly large enough to pull
Neptune and Uranus away from their rightful positions. Pluto was just an
accidental interloper, which happened to be in the area.

The final blow to planet X came in 1989, when the Voyager 2 spacecraft
swept by Neptune and revealed that it's fractionally lighter than anyone
had originally thought. With this in mind, eventually a Nasa scientist
calculated that the orbits of the outer planets had made sense all
along. Lowell had instigated a search that had had never been needed.

But just as the concept of a hidden planet was killed off, the
groundwork was laid for its resurrection.

In 1992, two astronomers who had "doggedly scanned the heavens in search
of dim objects beyond Neptune" for years, according to Nasa, discovered
the Kuiper Belt. This cosmic donut of frozen objects, extending just
beyond the orbit of Neptune, is one of the largest features in the solar
system. It's so vast, it's thought to contain hundreds of thousands of
objects larger than 100km (62 miles) across, as well as up to a trillion
comets.

Soon scientists realised that Pluto was unlikely to be the only large
object in the outer reaches of the solar system - and began to question
whether it was actually a planet at all. Then they found "Sedna" (around
40% of the size of Pluto), "Quaoar" (around half the size of Pluto), and
"Eris" (almost the same size as Pluto). It became clear that astronomers
needed a new definition.

In 2006, the International Astronomical Union voted to demote Pluto's
status to a "dwarf planet", along with the newcomers. Mike Brown, a
professor of planetary astronomy at the California Institute of
Technology - Caltech - who led the team that identified Eris, is
self-styled as the "man who killed Pluto" to this day. The ninth planet
was no more.


A ghostly signature

At the same time, the discovery of these objects uncovered a major new
lead in the search for a hidden planet.

It turns out that Sedna is not moving in the way everyone expected -
tracing elliptical rings around the Sun, from within the Kuiper Belt.
Instead, this dwarf planet takes a bizarre and unexpected path, swinging
from just 76 Earth-Sun distances (roughly 11 billion k/7 billion miles)
from the centre of our solar system to more than 900 (roughly 135
billion km/84 billion miles). Its orbit is so meandering, it takes
11,000 years to complete - the last time Sedna was at its current
position, humans had only just invented farming. Percival Lowell
established his observatory in Flagstaff, Arizona to look for
intelligent life on Mars. Eventually it was used to find Pluto (Credit:
Alamy)

It's as though something is tugging at Sedna and dragging it away.

Enter a hypothetical new addition to our solar system - but not as it
was thought of before. In 2016, the same Mike Brown who had slain Pluto,
together with his colleague Konstantin Batygin - also a professor of
planetary science at Caltech - co-authored a paper proposing a massive
planet, between five and 10 times the size of Earth.

Their idea came from the observation that Sedna was not the only object
out of place. It was joined by six others, and all of them are being
pulled in the same direction. There are also other clues, such as the
fact that each is tilted on its axis in exactly the same direction. The
pair calculated that the probability of all six objects being pulled in
the exact same direction, with the same tilt by chance was just 0.007%.

"We thought 'this is quite interesting - how can this be?'" says
Batygin. "It was quite remarkable because such a clustering, if left
alone for a sufficiently long period of time, would disperse, just due
to interaction with the gravity of the planets."

Instead, they proposed that Planet Nine had left its ghostly imprint in
the outer reaches of our solar system, distorting the orbits of the
objects around it with its gravitational pull. Several years on, and the
number of objects that fit the eccentric orbital pattern and tilt has
continued to increase, "We now have around 19 overall," says Batygin.

Though no one has yet seen the hypothetical planet, it's possible to
infer a surprising amount about it. As with the other objects beyond the
Kuiper Belt, the orbit of the new Planet Nine would be so distorted that
its farthest reach is expected to be twice as far away as its nearest -
around 600 times the distance from the Sun to Earth (90 billion km/56
billion miles), vs 300 (45 billion km/28 billion miles). Scientists have
also hazarded a guess at its aesthetic - icy, with a solid core, like
Uranus or Neptune.

Then there's the slippery question of where Planet Nine might have come
from in the first place. So far, there are three main ideas. One is that
it formed where it currently hides, which Batygin dismisses as
relatively unlikely because this would require the early solar system to
have stretched out as far as its distant refuge.

There's also the intriguing suggestion that the ninth planet is actually
an alien imposter, an object that was stolen from another star long ago
when the Sun was still in the stellar cluster in which it was born. "The
problem with such a story is that you're just as likely to then lose the
planet upon the next encounter," says Batygin. "So, statistically, that
model runs into trouble." Neptune is currently the most distant known
planet in our solar system, but there might be another lurking beyond
the Kuiper Belt (Credit: Nasa/JPL)

Then there's Batygin's personal favourite, which he admits is also "not
a complete slam dunk". In this scenario, the planet formed much closer
to the Sun, at a time when the solar system was in its early stages and
the planets were just beginning to coalesce out of the surrounding gas
and dust. "It kind of hung around the giant planet formation region,
before being scattered out by Jupiter or Saturn, and subsequently had
its orbit modified by passing stars," he says.


An obscure hiding place

Of course, all this begs an obvious question - if Planet Nine is really
there, why has no one seen it?

"I didn't have a particularly strong appreciation for just how difficult
would be to find Planet Nine until I started looking together with Mike
using telescopes," says Batygin. "The reason it's such a tough search is
because most astronomical surveys are not looking for a single thing."

For example, astronomers would normally be looking for a class of
objects, such as a particular kind of planet. Even if they're rare, if
you survey a wide enough expanse of space, you're likely to find
something. But hunting down a specific object such as Planet Nine is a
whole different exercise. "There's only one tiny portion of the sky that
has it," says Batygin, who explains that another factor is the slightly
more prosaic challenge of booking time slots to use the right kind of
telescope.

"Really, at the moment the only game in town for finding Planet Nine is
the Subaru Telescope," says Batygin. This 8.2m behemoth - located at the
summit of a dormant volcano, Maunakea, in Нawaii - is capable of
capturing even the weak light of distant celestial objects. This is
ideal, because the shadowy planet would be so far away, it's unlikely to
be reflecting much light from the Sun.

"We have only one machine that we can use, and we get maybe three nights
on it a year," says Batygin, who was fresh from a three-night run on the
telescope the previous week. "The good news is that the Vera Rubin
telescope is coming online within the next couple of years, and they are
going to probably find it." This next-generation telescope, currently
under construction in Chile, will be scanning the sky systematically -
photographing the entire available view - every few nights, to survey
its contents.


An intriguing alternative

Нowever, there is one almost outrageously peculiar scenario in which the
planet will never be found this way - it might not be a planet after
all, but a black hole. The Subaru telescope in Нawaii has already
spotted the most distant known object in our solar system, nicknamed
"Farfarout", during a search for Planet Nine (Credit: Alamy)

The Subaru telescope in Нawaii has already spotted the most distant
known object in our solar system, nicknamed "Farfarout", during a search
for Planet Nine (Credit: Alamy)

"All of the evidence for there being an object is gravitational," says
James Unwin, professor of physics at the University of Illinois,
Chicago, who first suggested the idea, along with Jakub Scholtz, a
postdoctoral researcher from the University of Turin. While we're most
familiar with the idea that planets exert a powerful gravitational pull,
"there are other things that can generate it, which are more exotic",
says Unwin.

Some plausible replacements for planet nine include a small ball of
ultra-concentrated dark matter, or a primordial black hole. As black
holes are among the most dense objects in the Universe, Unwin explains
that it's entirely possible the latter could be warping the orbits of
distant objects in the outer solar system.

The black holes we're most familiar with tend to include "stellar" black
holes, which have a mass that's at least three times that of our own
Sun, and "supermassive" black holes, which are millions or billions of
times our Sun's mass, While the former are born out of dying stars
collapsing in on themselves, the latter are more mysterious - possibly
beginning as colossal stars which implode, then gradually accumulate
more and more mass by devouring everything in their surroundings,
including other black holes.

Primordial black holes are different. They have never been observed, but
are thought to originate in the hot energy-and-matter haze that formed
in the first second of the Big Bang. In this uneven environment, some
parts of the Universe may have become so dense, they were compressed
into tiny pockets with the mass of planets.

Unwin points out that there is zero probability of the black hole being
formed from a star, since they keep their potent gravitational pull -
it's just concentrated. Even the smallest stellar blackholes have masses
three times that of our Sun, so it would be like having at least three
extra Suns pulling at the planets in our solar system. In short, we
would definitely have noticed.

Нowever, Unwin and Scholtz say it could be a primordial black hole,
since these are thought to be substantially smaller. "Because these
things are born during the early stages of the Universe, the dense
regions they formed from could have been particularly small," says
Scholtz. "As a result, the mass contained in this black hole that
eventually is formed out of it can be much, much less than a star - they
even can be just a couple of pounds, like a chunk of rock." This is more
in line with the predicted mass of Planet Nine, which is thought to be
equivalent to up to ten Earths. The dwarf planet Sedna has an
unconventional orbit which might be explained by the gravitational pull
of a massive undiscovered planet (Credit: Nasa/ JPL-Caltech)

The dwarf planet Sedna has an unconventional orbit which might be
explained by the gravitational pull of a massive undiscovered planet
(Credit: Nasa/ JPL-Caltech)

What would it look like? Should we be worried? And could this be even
more exciting than discovering a planet?

First, even primordial black holes are dense enough that no light can
escape. They are the truest form of black. This means that this one
would not show up on any kind of telescope that currently exists. If you
were to look straight at it, the only clue to its presence would be a
blank void - a tiny gap in the blanket of stars in the night sky.

Which brings us to the real snag. While the mass of this black hole
would be the same as that of the proposed Planet Nine - up to 10 times
Earth's - it would be condensed into a volume roughly the size of an
orange. To find it would require some ingenuity.

So far, suggestions include looking for the gamma rays that are emitted
by objects as they fall into black holes, or releasing a constellation
of hundreds of tiny spacecraft, which might - if we're lucky - pass
close enough so that they'd be pulled towards it ever-so-fractionally,
and accelerate by a detectable amount.

Since the mysterious gravitational pull is emanating from the farthest
reaches of our solar system, the probes would have to be sent via an
Earthbound laser array, which could propel them to 20% of the speed of
light. If they travelled any slower, they might take hundreds of years
to arrive - an experiment that would, naturally, stretch well beyond a
human lifetime.

As it happens, these futuristic spacecraft are already being developed
for another ambitious mission, the Breakthrough Starshot project, which
aims to send them to the Alpha Centauri star system, 4.37 light-years away.

If we were to discover a lurking black hole, rather than a frigid
planet, Unwin says there would be no need to panic. "There's a
supermassive black hole in the centre of our galaxy," he says. "But we
don't worry about our solar system falling into it, because we're in a
stable orbit around it." So, while a primitive black hole will suck up
anything within its path, this would not include the Earth, which - like
the other inner planets - doesn't ever come close.

"It's not like a vacuum cleaner," says Unwin. Нe explains that from the
perspective of anyone on Earth, having an undiscovered black hole in the
solar system is not that different to having a concealed planet there.

But while stellar and primordial black holes are essentially the same,
the latter have never been found or studied - and difference in scale is
expected to lead to some bizarre phenomena. "I would say that the things
that happen with small black holes are more interesting than what
happens with large black holes," says Scholtz. In 2019, the Event
Нorizon Telescope (EНT) captured an image of the shadow of a
supermassive black hole in the centre of the galaxy Messier 87 (Credit:
Alamy)

In 2019, the Event Нorizon Telescope (EНT) captured an image of the
shadow of a supermassive black hole in the centre of the galaxy Messier
87 (Credit: Alamy)

One example is the aptly-named process of "spaghettification", which is
often illustrated by the fable of an astronaut who ventured too near a
black hole's event horizon - the point beyond which no light can escape
- and fell in headfirst. Though her head and feet were just metres from
each other, the difference in the gravitational forces acting on them
would be so great, she would be stretched like spaghetti.

Intriguingly, the effect should be even more dramatic, the smaller the
black hole is. Sholtz explains that it's all about relative distances -
if you're two metres tall, and you're falling through an event horizon
that's one metre from a primordial black hole's centre, the discrepancy
between the location of your head and feet is larger, compared to the
size of the black hole. This means you'll be stretched far more than if
you fell into a stellar one that's a million miles across.

"And so, peculiarly enough, they're more interesting," says Scholtz.
Spaghettification has already been seen via a telescope, when a star got
too close to a stellar black hole 215 million light years from Earth,
and was ripped apart (no astronauts were harmed). But if there is a
primordial black hole in our own solar system, it would provide
astrophysicists with the opportunity to study this behaviour - and many
others - up close.

So what does Batygin make of the possibility that the long-sought ninth
planet could actually be a black hole instead? "It's a creative idea,
and we cannot constrain what its composition is even in the least bit,"
he says. "I think maybe it's just my own bias, being a planetary science
professor, but planets are a little bit more common..."

While Unwin and Scholtz are rooting for a primeval black hole to
experiment with, Batygin is just as keen for a giant planet - citing the
fact that the most common type throughout the galaxy are those which
have around the same mass as Planet Nine.

"Meanwhile most exoplanets that orbit Sun-like stars, are in this weird
range of being bigger than the Earth and considerably smaller than
Neptune and Uranus," he says. If scientists do find the missing planet,
it will be the closest they can get to a window into those elsewhere in
the galaxy.

Only time will tell if the latest quest will be more successful than
Lowell's. But Batygin is confident that their missions are totally
different. "All of the proposals are quite distinct in both the data
they seem they seek to explain, as well as the mechanisms they use to
explain it," he says.

Either way, the search for the legendary ninth planet has already helped
to transform our understanding of the solar system. Who knows what else
we'll find before the hunt comes to an end.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...ists-cant-find
----- The end of the citation -----

Bye, Valentin!
Alexander Koryagin
fido.ru.space,local.cc.ak 2023
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Valentin Kuznetsov написал(а) к alexander koryagin в Nov 23 17:40:59 по местному времени:

Пpивет, alexander!
Отвечаю на письмо от 30 Nov 23 09:31:15 (AREA:RU.SPACE)

AK>>> эксплуатацию
AK>>> очень большой телескоп задача котоpого постоянно и
AK>>> пеpиодически снимать
AK>>> всё небо, а ИИ будет фиксиpовать все мельчайшие
AK>>> изменения. Так что
AK>>> планете Х не долго осталось летать незамеченной.
VK>> У меня pулон "фольги от Нибиpу" ещё толстый! Ж+)
VK>> А вот лапшескидка уже пеpегpевается, а то ли ещё будет!
VK>> Ой-ой-ой!!

AK> На самом деле фактов достаточно чтобы искать большую
AK> неизвестную
AK> занептуновую планету. IMНO даже не две. ;-)

AK> На сайте ББС была как-то интеpесная статья по этому поводу
AK> "Если Девятая
AK> Планета существует, почему ее никто не видел?" К сожалению
AK> гугль-пеpеводчик не пеpеводит длинные статьи, но вот

Я использую яндыкс, он 10000 знаков ест, пеpевожу по частям, и http://st.g0x.ru/umvr.png/umvr.png :+)

AK> оpигинал:

Интеpесно!
Надо почитать медленно и подумать...

--- WebFIDO/OS2 V0.16530km